[8:01] Art Fossett: Hi, and welcome to this relatively informal panel session, following on from the Eduserv Foundation Symposium - Virtual worlds, real learning? - in May. [8:01] Art Fossett: Please find your way to a seat and sit down. [8:02] Art Fossett: Note that instructions are available by clicking on the two black signs at the front of the room. [8:02] Art Fossett: You'll notice that your seat turns red when you sit down. [8:02] Art Fossett: RED means - do NOT talk :-) [8:02] Art Fossett: Please do not speak until your seat turns bright GREEN. [8:03] Art Fossett: To speak, put up your hand - press PAGE-UP. [8:03] Art Fossett: On a Mac press Fn-Up arrow [8:03] Art Fossett: When you have finished speaking, put your hand down - PAGE-DOWN. [8:03] Art Fossett: this is very important - otherwise no-one else can speak [8:03] Art Fossett: You can leave the queue at any time by putting your hand down. [8:03] Art Fossett: Tips: Use the Alt-Camera controls to move your camera when seated. Feel free to pre-type your message once your hand is raised, but don't press return until your seat is green. [8:04] Art Fossett: IM me if you have any problems. (Animation overrides are suspected to cause problems :-) ). [8:04] Art Fossett: If the automatic queuing system malfunctions (that's a word we don't use enough) I'll turn it off. [8:04] Art Fossett: s in a real-life meeting, please try and keep your comments relevant to the current thread. Only ask new questions when others have finished. [8:04] Art Fossett: You may like to note that this session is being broadcast to Twitter (as an experiment). [8:05] Art Fossett: We will probably also publish a log of the chat from this session on the eFoundations or ArtsPlace blog. [8:05] Art Fossett: OK, we're about to start... [8:05] Art Fossett: I'd just like to thank all the panelists for taking time to be here today - and everyone in the audience. [8:05] Art Fossett: The floor is open... direct questions about the symposium are OK, as is anythign to do with the use of SL in education. Try to avoid other stuff if you can possibly help it! :-) [8:05] Panelist 3: Use PAGE-UP to raise hand and join queue to speak. Use PAGE-DOWN to lower hand and leave queue and/or to finish speaking. Your hand will wave when it is your turn to speak. PLEASE DO NOT SPEAK UNTIL IT IS YOUR TURN. Seat colors: Red: do not speak - put up your hand if you want to Amber: do not speak - you are in the queue, get ready and wait Green: go for it - it's your turn, your 15 seconds of fame, don't screw up! REMEMBER TO PUT YOUR HAND DOWN WHEN YOU HAVE FINISHED SPEAKING. [8:05] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Four Bailey: you may now start speaking. [8:06] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Art Fossett wants to speak. [8:06] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Art Fossett wants to speak. [8:06] Four Bailey: I was really interested in Diana Laurillard's question about new pedaggies in Sl - did anyone come up with anything as a result of the discussion? [8:06] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Audience member Four Bailey has finished speaking. [8:06] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Art Fossett: you may now start speaking. [8:06] Art Fossett: panelists?? [8:06] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Art Fossett has finished speaking. [8:06] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Art Fossett: you may now start speaking. [8:07] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Art Fossett has finished speaking. [8:07] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Art Fossett: you may now start speaking. [8:07] Art Fossett: well, i'm not aware of anything that came directly out of the symposium [8:07] Art Fossett: is anyone else?? [8:07] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Art Fossett has finished speaking. [8:08] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Algernon Spackler: you may now start speaking. [8:09] Algernon Spackler: One of the things Stephen Downes said which I did think I agreed with was that there may be nothing particularly new here.. it's another venue for the same pedagogies? [8:09] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Algernon Spackler has finished speaking. [8:09] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Kimberley Pascal: you may now start speaking. [8:09] Kimberley Pascal: Or ways of thinking about what our approaches to teaching in the "conventional " setting might be. [8:09] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Kimberley Pascal has finished speaking. [8:09] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Algernon Spackler: you may now start speaking. [8:10] Algernon Spackler: yes. (And I disagreed with quite a lot of what Stephen said too :-) [8:10] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Algernon Spackler has finished speaking. [8:10] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Art Fossett: you may now start speaking. [8:11] Art Fossett: kimberley, would you care to expand on that... what are we learning about what works well in rl? [8:11] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Art Fossett has finished speaking. [8:11] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Kimberley Pascal: you may now start speaking. [8:11] Kimberley Pascal: Never could get the idea of windows. [8:11] Kimberley Pascal: Ok. [8:12] Kimberley Pascal: Let's suggest that there are no "new pedagogies" but that we are forced to think more about teaching and learning when we get into unfamiliar circumstances. [8:12] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Kimberley Pascal has finished speaking. [8:12] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Four Bailey: you may now start speaking. [8:12] Four Bailey: I've wondered about whether 3d concept mapping in SL might be a productive area - where teachers coudl walk you round a concept to help explain it - has anyone tried this kind of thing [8:12] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Audience member Four Bailey has finished speaking. [8:13] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Kimberley Pascal: you may now start speaking. [8:13] Kimberley Pascal: Indeed. I think what Ms Wombat had to say about 3D visualisation was extremely exciting. [8:13] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Kimberley Pascal has finished speaking. [8:13] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Algernon Spackler: you may now start speaking. [8:13] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Joanna Wombat wants to speak. [8:14] Algernon Spackler: we've been doing some of that sort of work in IBM, though mainly with real-world intangibles like network architectures and molecules [8:14] Algernon Spackler: things you can't easily see, let alone walk around and show people [8:14] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Algernon Spackler has finished speaking. [8:14] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Joanna Wombat: you may now start speaking. [8:15] Joanna Wombat: Algernon, I agree, things that can't be seen at all are interesting in SL [8:15] Joanna Wombat: Also things which are complex - we have been trying out creating a human brain [8:15] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Kimberley Pascal wants to speak. [8:15] Joanna Wombat: Maybe a little like a jigsaw puzzle that could be pulled apart and seen from different angles [8:15] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Joanna Wombat has finished speaking. [8:15] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Kimberley Pascal: you may now start speaking. [8:15] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Kimberley Pascal has finished speaking. [8:16] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Kimberley Pascal: you may now start speaking. [8:16] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Audience member Ed Kamachi wants to speak. [8:16] Kimberley Pascal: Just to say that 3D neuro anatomy is something that psychology UGs need to get into, but find very difficult. I would be very keen to se the brin jigsaw. [8:16] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Kimberley Pascal has finished speaking. [8:16] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Ed Kamachi: you may now start speaking. [8:17] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Audience member Graham Mills wants to speak. [8:18] Ed Kamachi: Kimberley - I recall from the symposium that you had group discussions with studnts in SL. How did this compare with message boards and standard discussion group technology [8:18] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Audience member Ed Kamachi has finished speaking. [8:18] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Graham Mills: you may now start speaking. [8:18] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Audience member Graham Mills has finished speaking. [8:18] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Kimberley Pascal: you may now start speaking. [8:18] Kimberley Pascal: Very difficult to say. Limited experience. But the students did sem to talk about enhanced feelings of "presence" of the others. [8:18] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Kimberley Pascal has finished speaking. [8:18] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Joanna Wombat: you may now start speaking. [8:19] Joanna Wombat: I was speaking to someone who had attended a number of events in SL - then attended a RL event [8:19] Joanna Wombat: And reported that he found it so frustrating - because halfway through he wanted to ask a question but the etiquette of RL events didn't allow for that [8:19] Joanna Wombat: Whereas in SL that is positively encouraged [8:19] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Joanna Wombat has finished speaking. [8:19] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Art Fossett: you may now start speaking. [8:20] Art Fossett: except in this meeting?? :-) [8:20] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Art Fossett has finished speaking. [8:20] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Art Fossett: you may now start speaking. [8:20] Art Fossett: where the chairing system is trying to replicate some of that rl convention [8:20] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Art Fossett has finished speaking. [8:20] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Kimberley Pascal: you may now start speaking. [8:20] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Audience member Ed Kamachi wants to speak. [8:20] Algernon Spackler nods without putting his hand up, the rebel [8:20] Kimberley Pascal: The discipline of this is interesting, but feel it gets in the way a bit. [8:21] Kimberley Pascal: Very good to try these things out, of course. [8:21] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Kimberley Pascal has finished speaking. [8:21] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Ed Kamachi: you may now start speaking. [8:21] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Babbage Linden wants to speak. [8:21] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Audience member Magistra Clary wants to speak. [8:21] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Algernon Spackler wants to speak. [8:21] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Audience member Magistra Clary has left the queue. [8:21] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Algernon Spackler wants to speak. [8:22] Ed Kamachi: i think the idea of "Presence" is quite interesting as with internet chat etc you do not know if somebody is there or making a coffee [8:22] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Audience member Ed Kamachi has finished speaking. [8:22] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Babbage Linden: you may now start speaking. [8:22] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Algernon Spackler wants to speak. [8:22] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Babbage Linden has finished speaking. [8:22] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Algernon Spackler: you may now start speaking. [8:22] Algernon Spackler: One of the things I really love about conferences in virtual worlds is the easy back-channel. The queuing system does seem to slow that down somewhat. But yeah, always good to experiment [8:22] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Algernon Spackler has finished speaking. [8:22] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Algernon Spackler: you may now start speaking. [8:22] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Babbage Linden wants to speak. [8:22] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Algernon Spackler has finished speaking. [8:22] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Algernon Spackler: you may now start speaking. [8:22] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Algernon Spackler has finished speaking. [8:22] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Babbage Linden: you may now start speaking. [8:22] Babbage Linden: one of the nice things about space in SL is that you can build spatial clues for communication [8:23] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Audience member Graham Mills wants to speak. [8:23] Babbage Linden: as roo was saying in RL, red circles on the floor, or stages with differentiated seating help a lot [8:23] Babbage Linden: sl versus raw text chat gives lots more information about when its ok to talk [8:23] Babbage Linden: which i think are a lot more subtle than a queueing system [8:23] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Babbage Linden has finished speaking. [8:23] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Graham Mills: you may now start speaking. [8:23] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Art Fossett wants to speak. [8:23] Graham Mills: I think the fact you can give and share your builds is novel [8:23] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Audience member Graham Mills has finished speaking. [8:23] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Art Fossett: you may now start speaking. [8:24] Art Fossett: so, i'm going to turn the queuing system off for a while and see what happens... ok? [8:24] PanelPod Virtual Chair: Panelist Art Fossett has finished speaking. [8:24] Kimberley Pascal: Live dangerously! [8:24] Algernon Spackler: that sense of presence is even better than conference calls, I think Babbage [8:24] Art Fossett: ok, it is off [8:24] Babbage Linden: having said that i've been to thinkers meetings where things got heated and difficult to follow [8:25] Algernon Spackler: (on a call, you have no idea if someone is desperate to speak, or ignoring you totally) [8:25] Art Fossett: you can still put up your hand if you like! :-) [8:25] Kimberley Pascal: Just testing. [8:25] Kimberley Pascal: Good - works. [8:26] Art Fossett: note, the queueing system didn't blobk people from talking anyway! :-) lol [8:26] Kimberley Pascal: :-/ [8:26] Joanna Wombat: I think it's not so much the queuing system or lack of it that makes SL more open to discussion [8:26] Joanna Wombat: People of course can interrupt RL talks as well [8:26] Algernon Spackler: I wonder,of the participants, who thinks things have already moved in the couple of months since the symposium? More projects in the area of virtual worlds? More interest? Less? [8:26] Art Fossett: well, yes [8:26] Joanna Wombat: They just tend not to, because it's more disruptive [8:26] Art Fossett: hmmm, yes i guess so [8:27] Art Fossett: the difficulty in SL is when 2 threads start at once (true of any chat system of course) [8:27] Babbage Linden: multiple text streams are much easier to follow than summultaneous audio chats [8:27] Art Fossett: yes, agreed [8:27] Peregrine Juneau: @ Algernon, yes, prob more interest, or maybe I've just been following it a bit more [8:27] Algernon Spackler: I tend to find it easy to filter and rearrange [8:27] Babbage Linden: (although typos are less frequent in audio chat) [8:27] Art Fossett: lol [8:27] Algernon Spackler: though it's harder reading it back later, as you miss out on the timing of overlapping messages [8:28] Kimberley Pascal: Can you *ever* really go back to review the "essence" of a chat however? [8:28] Art Fossett: so, i'm concerned that a lot of discussions around education and second life are still very theoretical in nature [8:28] Labatt Pawpaw: /sigh [8:28] Art Fossett: i'm desperate to hear more about wehat people have actually done... what works, what doesn't [8:28] Jaime Fabre: me too! [8:29] Art Fossett: @labatt note that the queuing system is now off [8:29] Labatt Pawpaw: OK [8:29] Rlo Bing: didn't raise my hand though- just started to type! [8:30] Jaime Fabre: It's good for demonsrating 3D models etc. but what else? [8:30] Muriel Graves: Has anyone had the chance yet to study gaps (if any) between what we as designers would like students to do and what they are able to do in SL? [8:30] Art Fossett: in terms of their capabilities you mean? or in terms of what the system is capable of? [8:31] Muriel Graves: Theirs. [8:31] Kimberley Pascal: My experience would be that students can get quite far quite qucikly. [8:31] Kimberley Pascal: 3D building seems to come more naturally. [8:31] Kimberley Pascal: Some people really take off. [8:31] Enclued Seelowe: we use teamspeak - I find it very intense and we are waiting for the inworld voice chat, which will help al lot through distance sensitivity [8:31] Muriel Graves: I can imagine projects where I ask them to model a concept, but where their SL building wasn't able to keep pace with their conceptualization [8:32] Kimberley Pascal: There is immediacy that is not often experienced. [8:32] Algernon Spackler: even (especially?) non-techies end up being great builders. [8:32] Muriel Graves: Good to hear it! [8:32] Kimberley Pascal: I think that is a good point - that technical skill is not up to the ideas that people are trying to express. [8:32] Babbage Linden: the opposite can also be true [8:33] Algernon Spackler: isn't that point just as valid in the case of pen and paper, or powerpoint? :-) [8:33] Babbage Linden: there are some large scale projects that would be impossible in rl [8:33] Art Fossett: can building as pedagogy be applied in all subjects? [8:33] Kimberley Pascal: Agree. [8:33] Babbage Linden: nottingham is talking about using sl to teach digital citizenship [8:33] Corwin Carillon: isn't a key to all of this, creating an environment where the power shifts from teachers to students (so we see a lot of collaborative student project work) [8:33] Babbage Linden: by modifying a model of the city in sl and then discussing it [8:33] Kimberley Pascal: It is very like the "learning through programming" of Papert, and learning through design, and so on. [8:33] Art Fossett: cool [8:33] Babbage Linden: driving real bulldozers through the city wouldn't be easy [8:34] Art Fossett: fun though [8:34] Art Fossett: in some cities! [8:34] Peregrine Juneau: (Babbage, you haven't seen Bath recently) [8:34] Muriel Graves: Hmmm. . .virtual protesters? [8:35] Art Fossett: @corwin "we see a lot of collaborative project work" or "we will see a lot of collaborative..."? [8:35] Corwin Carillon: we see a lot ... [8:35] Art Fossett: ok, good [8:35] Corwin Carillon: but the importance to me is something we have talked about in education for a long time .. [8:35] Corwin Carillon: but don't really do in our industrial formal ed ... [8:35] Corwin Carillon: shift power to students [8:36] Kimberley Pascal: Yup [8:36] Corwin Carillon: SL seems to lend itself to that more [8:36] Call button: Radar Radio is asking for assistance. [8:36] Corwin Carillon: although people are still doing the WebCT didactic thing in SL [8:36] Corwin Carillon: sadly [8:37] Kimberley Pascal: What are the things that we should be avoiding? [8:37] Art Fossett: queuing systems?? :-) [8:37] Kimberley Pascal: :-) [8:37] Kimberley Pascal: Not necessarily? [8:37] Algernon Spackler: Reaching students where they currently are (whether its Second Life, Facebook, or wherever) would seem to be one of the opportunities here [8:38] Algernon Spackler: e.g. why build yet another social networking system for them when they're already using 17 [8:38] Luther Meriman: /so long as they want to be reached in their own spaces [8:38] Kimberley Pascal: We are not seeing *many* students yet in SL. [8:38] Algernon Spackler: that's an interesting point [8:38] Art Fossett: yes... but i suppose that is one of my concerns... are students actually in SL ?? [8:38] Art Fossett: (oh, sorry, same point) [8:38] Kimberley Pascal: Good point about whether the students *want* us there. :-) [8:39] Graham Mills: I think it's crucial that first contact with SL is positive [8:39] Algernon Spackler: (by the way, I'm not directly comparing SL with FB here.. they're different tools with different uses, but I hope my point makes some sense) [8:39] Art Fossett: they might not want you at the front of a lecture theatre either?? (not you personally you understand!) [8:39] Graham Mills: for teachers and students [8:39] Luther Meriman: ;) [8:40] Labatt Pawpaw: First contact with anything needs to be positive [8:40] Art Fossett: @graham yes agree... and for me that means that it has to be made into some kind of 'building' experience [8:40] Babbage Linden: i liked the vue sitting round the campfire environment [8:40] Babbage Linden: something else that wouldn't be easy in an rl classroom [8:40] Kimberley Pascal: I recently asked a group of teachers what they could do to make the talk that I was then giving to them go wrong. [8:40] Algernon Spackler: yes.. informality and fun are important in business and eduction too I guess [8:41] Kimberley Pascal: Perhaps that is something that one could model in SL. [8:41] Kimberley Pascal: Expolore what getting it wrong means. [8:41] Babbage Linden: there's lots of scope for exploring different teaching envionments and settings [8:41] Algernon Spackler: that's a lovely model for understanding how to do something well isn't it? Ask how to do it really badly and avoid those mistakes [8:41] Babbage Linden: as our experiment with queuing showed [8:41] Kimberley Pascal: Harsh! [8:41] Art Fossett: lol [8:42] Art Fossett: i'm not inviting babbage again! [8:42] Algernon Spackler: a nice case of interleaved conversations giving a different meaning to a comment? [8:42] Four Bailey: I was looking again at the ideas of Ivan Illich on Deschooling Society . that led to some of the fairly disastrous experiments in UK education during the 1970s . unstructured curricula with students learning only what they wanted to learn and basically running wild . but it seems to me that the reach of SL and the tools it provides, might facilitate the kind of deschooling that Illich envisaged . what does the panel think? [8:43] Kimberley Pascal: Letting students learn what they want doesn't necessarily = running wild. :-) [8:43] Algernon Spackler: if there's trust there.. [8:43] Kimberley Pascal: Indeed. [8:43] Babbage Linden: i really like sl as a platform for experimentation and on demand learning [8:43] Geoff Magellan: And some of the free schools in the 70s did really good work! [8:43] Kimberley Pascal: Again, trust is something that can be explored in a virtual world. [8:43] Corwin Carillon: and scaffolding, mentoring coaching is there too as well as trust [8:43] Babbage Linden: it's easier for it to be a chemistry set than a chemistry class i think [8:44] Algernon Spackler: you mean it doesn't replace the teacher? [8:44] Art Fossett: it's something you play with - not receive [8:44] Kimberley Pascal: I like that metaphor. [8:44] Algernon Spackler nods [8:44] Magistra Clary: Assessment always has to be addressed, and it seems harder to assess in SL using the same pedagogy utilized for the teaching. [8:44] Muriel Graves: It might also mean that some learning needs the teacher t be out of the way [8:45] Corwin Carillon: why harder to assess in SL? [8:45] Lovely Day: Hmm. I'm a real outsider here. But if you give people / children a task, they can explore. Measurement can come from the results they produce. Can't it? [8:46] Kimberley Pascal: I think we need to keep in mind "assessment for what?" [8:46] Corwin Carillon: assessment for learning [8:46] Magistra Clary: Without resorting to traditional exam-style assessment. Results they produce equals meaning? [8:47] Kimberley Pascal: As opposed to assessment *of* lerning"? [8:47] Corwin Carillon: yes [8:47] Kimberley Pascal: agree [8:47] Kimberley Pascal: Good tasks is the way to plan a course. [8:48] Kimberley Pascal: That is somthing that SL does - makes you talk in "sound bites". :-) [8:48] Algernon Spackler: Twitter (and SMS before that) has been making me think in soundbites for a while [8:48] Algernon Spackler grins [8:48] Art Fossett: i'm confused... what does assessment mean in SL? [8:48] Kimberley Pascal: :-) [8:49] Kimberley Pascal: I'm not very good at it. [8:49] Kimberley Pascal: Longwinded. :-( [8:49] Kimberley Pascal: Assessment - can people do / achieve stuff? [8:50] Kimberley Pascal: Noe *grading* - there is another matter altogether. [8:51] Art Fossett: i'm going to ask another question of the panel (and teachers in the audience)... [8:51] Art Fossett: supposing that there were no technical issues around SL and that you turned up at the start of next year in a chemistry class and said, right we're going to do this class in sl... what would your average 18 year old's reaction be?? [8:51] Art Fossett: would they be positive... negative?? [8:51] Algernon Spackler: I don't know many 18 year olds, but somewhere between "yay" and "huh?" I imagine? [8:51] Peregrine Juneau: Yes ;-) [8:51] Kimberley Pascal: Can I digress? [8:51] Graham Mills: Well, they don't flock to SL for its own sake [8:51] Art Fossett: only in soundbites [8:52] Labatt Pawpaw: what sense is there to make of an 'average' reaction? [8:52] Kimberley Pascal: Some of my mediacal colleagues have observed that "e-learning" is less valued by the students. [8:52] Daedalus Shepherd: If it were WoW, they would be all over it. [8:52] Kimberley Pascal: Because it is fun. [8:52] Lovely Day: Wouldn't they expect to go home and participate from there? [8:52] Magistra Clary: Negative, I think. Why are we messing up a virtual environment to make them learn there. [8:52] Algernon Spackler: are virtual worlds not also fun and playful? [8:53] Labatt Pawpaw: If you have 30 people in the class, you'll have 30 different reactions -- and the obligation to deal with each one separately [8:53] Muriel Graves: I would expect them to be skeptical, but also more willing to experiement. Especially if the "grading" occurred elsewhere. [8:53] Art Fossett: @labatt by average i meant would most people be into trying it, or would most people reject it [8:53] Joanna Wombat: I think they would be worried: "The old way works, how do we know this won't ruin our chances of doing well" [8:53] Art Fossett: ok, point taken [8:53] Joanna Wombat: I have found a lot of people approach new technologies with fear [8:53] Muriel Graves: SL as a practice area, not an evaluation area [8:53] Joanna Wombat: But that would fade with exposure to it - force them, and they'd get over it [8:53] Ed Kamachi: So waht do we think the issues would be with grading students within SL [8:53] Algernon Spackler: Joanna: really? With respect, that sounds more like a lecturer's reaction than a student's. [8:53] Art Fossett: that makes it quite an uphill struggle doesn't it? [8:54] Joanna Wombat: I know, but that was exactly how my undergraduate classes reacted to online only modules [8:54] Rlo Bing: Not sure whyt that keeps happenining -- anyway, in my university, access to SL is currently blocked by the firewall - we can't even get updated versions of Flash player on the uni pcs... [8:54] Joanna Wombat: We only had two web-based modules out of about 20 [8:54] Algernon Spackler: Although I'd agree that not all students are early adopters of course.. some of what makes people keen to try this stuff has nothing to do with age [8:54] Kimberley Pascal: There are important issues of relationship here. [8:54] Joanna Wombat: And they were the least popular - although those people that did take them subsequently loved them [8:54] Algernon Spackler: interesting [8:54] Kimberley Pascal: If they trust you, they would be interested to know what you were up to. [8:55] iAlja Writer: SL still looks like a waste of time to an avaerage student from my experience [8:55] Graham Mills: Making first contact productive is important. IBM, Nature at al can help a lot more. [8:55] Labatt Pawpaw: If the students trust you - they will have one kind of reaction, if they have a srong techno background, they will have a certain type of reaction... [8:55] Labatt Pawpaw: Does the 'average' student trust you? Haven't a clue [8:55] Jaime Fabre: over half my students chose SL option as opposed to t raditional [8:55] Graham Mills: What subject? [8:55] Jaime Fabre: law [8:55] Magistra Clary: Then giving a choice is important? [8:56] Kimberley Pascal: But the notion that trust / relationship might be important to teaching tells you something about what you should be trying to do. [8:56] Jaime Fabre: exactly [8:56] Art Fossett: the reason i'm asking, is because some of the rhetoric around SL is that we need to be were the students are... but i just don't buy that argument because i'm not really convinced that that *is* where they are [8:56] Graham Mills: Agreed [8:56] Kimberley Pascal: Good point. [8:57] Kimberley Pascal: But I don't think that that is whay *we* are interested in SL. [8:57] Art Fossett: i'm not srguing against SL you understand... but i want to be clearer about why we want people to go to SL and how hard it is going to be to convince them to do so [8:57] Luther Meriman: Interesting that we no longer equire the students to be where the teachers are???!!! [8:58] Art Fossett: well we do in a sense don't we? [8:58] Luther Meriman: How about a 'build it and they will come' attitude? (corny I know) [8:58] Kimberley Pascal: I think we *do* make very egocentric assumptions about our students ctually. [8:58] Graham Mills: I think scaling issues mean that initially we'll be taeching small groups informally unasessed. They do the building [8:58] Labatt Pawpaw: Oh I doubt very much that the students are in SL [8:58] Art Fossett: @luther i don't think that works, because SL is about building it yourself! :-) [8:59] Kimberley Pascal: We have some stats on our students. [8:59] Labatt Pawpaw: WoW maybe... Wii probably... Facebook yes... MySpace, some of them, still... YouTube... yes [8:59] Art Fossett: the people who get hooked by SL are those people that want to use it to buidl or do stuff [8:59] Kimberley Pascal: Theye are *not* (many of them) in SL as yet. [8:59] Luther Meriman: OK - agreed. How about, ;start to build it and they will come and improve it'? [8:59] Graham Mills: 3% [8:59] Art Fossett: how about, get them to build it? [8:59] Babbage Linden: one of the issues with SL is that generally only 10% of people get it [8:59] Babbage Linden: so when you try to bring an existing group of people in [8:59] Babbage Linden: most of them won't get on with it [9:00] Lovely Day: Who in this room is reading the chat history? And who is looking at the people? And, if the chat history, why bother with SL? [9:00] Kimberley Pascal: Define "Get it" - this is important. [9:00] Babbage Linden: i'd like to ask roo about his experience with bringing IBM in to SL [9:00] Art Fossett: @lovely interesting question... can we come back to it [9:00] Babbage Linden: well getting it means logging in ever again [9:00] iAlja Writer: and why don't people "get SL"? is the problem with the people or with the technology? [9:00] Labatt Pawpaw: I'm using the chat room history - I have it enlarged... the avatars basically haven't moved since I got here, why bother too look at them, all you see are virus-twitches and typing hands [9:00] Graham Mills: Kinesthetic learners? [9:00] Kimberley Pascal: OK - that is an operational definition. [9:00] Jelly Vella: or is it Orientation Island that drives them away? [9:00] Babbage Linden: ialja, that's a good question [9:00] Kimberley Pascal: But do you have an handle on what that means "psychologically"? [9:01] Lovely Day: Art: does that mean 'bugger off?' :-) [9:01] Babbage Linden: do we just need to make SL better [9:01] Algernon Spackler: well, we didn't push everyone.. we simply told people why we found it interesting and helped those who followed get involved [9:01] iAlja Writer: for me the whole UI is a big issue [9:01] Babbage Linden: or will the best possible virtual world still not click with some people? [9:01] Labatt Pawpaw: I think people *do* get it.. [9:01] Art Fossett: @lovely no absolutely not - just manually doing what the queuing system failed to do! :-) [9:01] iAlja Writer: it takes too much time to learn how to deal with the interface - that usually turn a lot of people off :( [9:01] Babbage Linden: so, roo is trying to get a fraction of IBM interested [9:01] Babbage Linden: i think that might be the way to go [9:02] Babbage Linden: aim to get a fraction of the class involved [9:02] Babbage Linden: not everyone en masse [9:02] Kimberley Pascal: I think the idea of "learning styles" or "approaches to learning" might be relevant here. [9:02] Jaime Fabre: a taster for all, then choice [9:02] Babbage Linden: yes jaime [9:02] Algernon Spackler: equally, we have an internal blogging system. It's great that some people use it, but I am not sure how productive it would be to force everyone to be involved [9:02] Magistra Clary: Too much time to learn it. That's key. [9:03] Babbage Linden: yes, magistra, but some people will make the effort [9:03] Babbage Linden: after your taster session [9:03] Labatt Pawpaw: Hm, contrast 2L with Wii [9:03] Labatt Pawpaw: and Wii with traditional video games [9:03] iAlja Writer: but not everyone will make the effort - so we should make the effort to bring the technology closer to the rest [9:03] iAlja Writer: Wii is an excellent example [9:04] Labatt Pawpaw: Traditional video games, eg. baseball, you had to learn how to use the controller - majorly difficult skill, esp. for popl not experienced with video games [9:04] Labatt Pawpaw: Wii - you just swing the bat [9:04] Labatt Pawpaw: Wii opens up video gaming to a whole new audience [9:04] Babbage Linden: both wii and SL are both good examples of making technology easier to use [9:04] Labatt Pawpaw: 2L - you still have to type (or click) commands for everything [9:04] Babbage Linden: both existed in academia and fringes of industry for a long time [9:04] Kimberley Pascal: Yes, I think that there are two paths to usability here. [9:04] Labatt Pawpaw: That's not how pwoplw opewrate in real life [9:04] iAlja Writer: SL is waaay more difficult to learn than Wii [9:04] Labatt Pawpaw: so 2L never feels real [9:05] Kimberley Pascal: One is sensory, the other affective. [9:05] Babbage Linden: before they were made easier and more attractive to a mass of people [9:05] iAlja Writer: perhaps voice will be able to help SL to feel a bit more real [9:05] Labatt Pawpaw: For 2L to capture the imagination of people, for people to 'get' online 3D experiences, the interaction has to be natural [9:05] Jaime Fabre: agreed [9:05] Jelly Vella: I'm not looking forward to voice.... [9:05] Labatt Pawpaw: voice will help - the biggest problem I had with MUDs is that people couldn't converse by typing [9:06] Lovely Day: I'm not looking forward to voice because I'm male really [9:06] Labatt Pawpaw: But voice brings with it all kinds of cmplications - and not just bandwidth issues [9:06] Enclued Seelowe: voice definitly helps a lot to feel involved - as mentioned we use temaspeak in our group [9:06] Babbage Linden: the people and the content are key [9:06] Jelly Vella: to Lovely - tehehe [9:06] Kimberley Pascal: Many people worry that voice will corrupt the anonymity. [9:06] Jaime Fabre: yes-but typing is so slow [9:06] Babbage Linden: it's easy to get sidetracked with the interface technologies [9:06] Magistra Clary: Learning the interface can be counterproductive to content mastery. [9:06] Four Bailey: it takes little time and no expertise to enter SL - and to then be on the periphery of an enormmous community of practice - and to move deeper into it at your own pace [9:06] iAlja Writer: but I think voice will be useful for education [9:07] Art Fossett: @lovely and labatt... what about the history issue... if we are all just readng the history how does SL help? [9:07] Jelly Vella: not if you're deaf...not if you're not so confident in English... [9:07] Kimberley Pascal: All in all, I feel the barriers to entry here seem to be low. [9:07] Four Bailey: with help from the diverse range of people you meet... [9:07] Art Fossett: is the layout of this room a problem... i think it probably is... should we just be standing around randomly?? [9:07] iAlja Writer: who says we'll be speaking in English? :) [9:07] Enclued Seelowe: like with the new voice feature it helps a lot if you know/leran/see who said what [9:07] Four Bailey: no i thinkt he layout helps signal the roles at the outset [9:07] Labatt Pawpaw: Art: well that's just the issue - I use the histor because the 3D dimension hasn't added nything [9:07] Jelly Vella: to iA...ah, good point... [9:08] Labatt Pawpaw: to me it's just a MUD with eye candy [9:08] Algernon Spackler: it's certainly quite formal in here for an infomal chat [9:08] Lovely Day: Labatt: well spoken [9:08] Jaime Fabre: where's the campfire? [9:08] Kimberley Pascal: With respect, we like what we know. [9:08] Enclued Seelowe: couldn't be there a function to show the written text above our heads? [9:08] Art Fossett: theoretically i think you are right (i don't see what the 3-D adds) in practice i think you are wrong(3-D adds something that I can't quatify) [9:08] Jelly Vella: there is. chat bubbles??? [9:08] Kimberley Pascal: We need to be careful allowing this to cloud judgement. [9:08] Babbage Linden: labatt, you're both right and wrong [9:08] Magistra Clary: It facilitates a large number of people making a verbal contribution. [9:09] Jarrad Voom: Five people typing now - I don't think it would be fun with them all invoice at once [9:09] Labatt Pawpaw: Enclued: that's what The Palace used to do - avatars with speech bubbles [9:09] Algernon Spackler: there is one Enclued. bubble chat feature in your chat preference menu [9:09] Babbage Linden: we have seen the technology before, nothing new under the sun, but the scale makes all the difference [9:09] Lovely Day: Seeing people allows us to click on profiles easily. That's useful [9:09] Babbage Linden: we haven't seen MUDs and MOOs on this scale [9:09] Babbage Linden: and there are networking effects that kick in [9:09] Art Fossett: no, agreed [9:09] Babbage Linden: which is why SL took so long to take off [9:09] Lovely Day: Interleaving of history kind of helps [9:09] Kimberley Pascal: Yes, Lovely. "Knowledge in the world". [9:09] Art Fossett: sorry... yes, agreed - the network effect is important [9:10] Four Bailey: and yuo say something about yourself in your choice of avatar and appearance - non verbal communication and all that... [9:10] Lovely Day: Oh shit [9:10] Lovely Day: Sorry [9:10] Kimberley Pascal: ?? :-) [9:10] Labatt Pawpaw: what network effect? there may be lots of people (*may* be) but they're in different worlds as far as I';m concerned [9:10] Algernon Spackler is slightly scared of the powerful right arm of Babbage [9:10] Art Fossett: @labatt because you never get to see them?? [9:11] Babbage Linden: well, in terms of the economy, there is now a market big enough to make a living if you're good [9:11] Labatt Pawpaw: And the MUDs - once InterMUD was established - certainly had this kind of scale [9:11] Babbage Linden: in terms of socialising you are far more likely to find someone who shares your interests [9:11] Babbage Linden: and that you will get along with [9:11] Babbage Linden: or some content that you find interesting [9:12] Jaime Fabre: i wouldn't have linked up with you lot without the virtaul conf [9:12] Art Fossett: content in sl is interest... the concept i mean [9:12] Art Fossett: if i'm honest, for me, the content is largely irrelevant [9:12] Kimberley Pascal: content = experience [9:12] Algernon Spackler: the conversation is the content you mean? [9:12] Art Fossett: i wouldn't come into sl to see something that someone else had built very often [9:12] Babbage Linden: places and things provide the points around which communities form [9:13] Art Fossett: yes, the social side is important, but (again) the constructing side is the most important (for me) [9:13] Jaime Fabre: it gives students a chance to role play [9:13] Babbage Linden: you go to the space flight museum for the rockets and stay for the people [9:13] Art Fossett: yup agreed [9:13] Labatt Pawpaw: Babbage, it's just not true -- I don't meet people at all on 2L, I meet them elsewhere and go to 2L -- it's actually harder to meet people than, say, on discussion boards, IRC or even MUDs, because they're so spread apart [9:13] Babbage Linden: it's the same with more traditional MMOGs [9:13] Algernon Spackler nods [9:13] Labatt Pawpaw: Also - there is no content to speak of on 2L, certainly not when compared to the web [9:13] Babbage Linden: but you need lots of people before you stand a good chance of finding the people you get along with [9:13] Peregrine Juneau: Also some of the social dimension is in the Web communities around SL [9:14] Labatt Pawpaw: or even to MUDs (which at least had quests and other things to do, not just casinos) [9:14] Algernon Spackler: I tend to look for green dots (e.g. populated areas) in places I know to be interesting, rather than just anywhere [9:14] Jaime Fabre: it is early days [9:14] Graham Mills: Agreed [9:14] Kimberley Pascal: quests = tasks. We are back to course design again. [9:14] Labatt Pawpaw: I look for the green dots too - but in every cases, unless I have been given a specific slurl, I end up at a casino or bingo or bar [9:14] Enclued Seelowe: no, its not the early days - I'm waiting for solutions for at least 1o years ;-) [9:15] Algernon Spackler: well, Labatt, that's what I meant by places I know to be interesting [9:15] Labatt Pawpaw: well ok then, as long as we're clear [9:15] Algernon Spackler: like spaceport alpha, IBM n, Ivory Tower of Prims, etc [9:15] Misha Writer: depends what you (or the students) go there for [9:15] Virtual Congress Centre voting button: Russello Watanabe has rated the meeting as good. [9:15] Magistra Clary: Conferences about education are the most interesting for me. Groups like this. [9:15] Virtual Congress Centre voting button: Thanks for your vote. IM any further comments to Art Fossett, or email symposium@eduserv.org.uk. [9:16] Art Fossett: i find the sandboxes one of the most interesting places to visit [9:16] Misha Writer: it's one thing to pop along & hope you'll find something or someone interesting [9:16] Algernon Spackler: we don't complain that the web is rubbish because we never meet interesting people there; we find venues where we will [9:16] Labatt Pawpaw: Babbage says, 'you go for the spaceflight museum, and stay for the people' - shall we check & see whether there are any people there now? what's the slurl? [9:16] Misha Writer: it's quite different tif you're going somewhere for a purpose - like here for this discussion [9:16] Kimberley Pascal: It is easy for us at the moment. We are building something - our new island - so I can go and look in on what other people are doing. [9:17] Algernon Spackler: 2 people in "spaceport alpha", 1 in bravo [9:17] Kimberley Pascal: You *do* meet new people, and you do find out new things. [9:17] Art Fossett: @ labatt i think it was a generic point being made by babbage? [9:17] Babbage Linden: yes [9:17] Labatt Pawpaw: generic, but false... [9:17] Algernon Spackler: and (unlike some places) there are people there right now [9:17] Algernon Spackler: (albeit only 3, that's more than in many sims which have had big press releases) [9:18] Art Fossett: no, i disagree... if you go to a sandbox and start building something i guarantee that you will be in conversation with somebody very quickly [9:18] Babbage Linden: yes [9:18] Art Fossett: and by and large (ignoring griefers) it will be a +ve conversation/experience [9:18] Graham Mills: I've enjoyed meeting people in the education sandboxes [9:19] Algernon Spackler counts 36 people spread across various IBM sims at the moment [9:19] Enclued Seelowe: we had the best experiences in our group going to other places and exploering and discussing about them [9:19] Art Fossett: but again (sorry, i know i'm whittering on) it is the building that is central to the positive experience [9:19] Misha Writer: but this is getting quite techie-focused [9:19] Graham Mills: Building is very demanding [9:19] Art Fossett: @misha why techie? [9:19] Misha Writer: most teachers & students will not be going to build [9:19] Art Fossett: why? [9:19] Labatt Pawpaw: I haven't found the sandboxes yet - I've been creating things, but on public streets - but nobody stops to comment - looking for places by green dots, I've never encountered a sandbox [9:19] Misha Writer: unless they're able to build or [9:19] Four Bailey: i don't agree I think they will like to build... [9:20] Misha Writer: or are studying building [9:20] Art Fossett: go to the berkman sandbox or somewhere like that [9:20] Labatt Pawpaw: You have to learn about the sandboxes from places outside 2L [9:20] Misha Writer: I'm sure some of them will love building things [9:20] Four Bailey: no I learnt about sandboxes in world [9:20] Graham Mills: I go to ANGEL Learning and Education UK. They can be quiet. Time zone effects [9:20] Art Fossett: @labatt... no search for sandbox [9:20] Art Fossett: in 2L [9:20] Magistra Clary: A lot depends on the discipline...do law students like to build? [9:20] Misha Writer: but it will only be a minority of Ts & Ss [9:21] Kimberley Pascal: I think one can use the word "build" quite loosely. [9:21] Misha Writer: in most areas of learning we'll be looking to set up situations [9:21] Art Fossett: for me, the term 'build' is fairly wide - i include 'make a film', run a virtual courtroom, put on a play, etc. [9:21] Kimberley Pascal: You could set law students to "build" a role play exercise. [9:21] Misha Writer: in which Ss can learn something relevant [9:21] Kimberley Pascal: Give them the tables, chairs and wigs. [9:21] Art Fossett: or let some of the build the tables, etc and some do the role play ?? [9:21] Four Bailey: it hink it's compuslive for human beings to build - why do we enjoy the beach so much - its creative and constructive and helps you represent your thoughts regardless of your subject specialism [9:21] Misha Writer: . . . and which they can't do in the same way in RL [9:22] Kimberley Pascal: Indeed. Division of labout. [9:22] Magistra Clary: But, they COULD role-play in RL. What makes SL more effective/fun? [9:23] Daedalus Shepherd: Easier to build the stage [9:23] Kimberley Pascal: Empirical question. Does it? [9:23] Art Fossett: i don't know... but it is (for me) [9:23] Four Bailey: because it's less limited by practical constraints of space and equipment... [9:23] Daedalus Shepherd: Easier=Cheaper [9:23] Graham Mills: Identity, stepping outside the box [9:23] Babbage Linden: anonymity too [9:23] iAlja Writer: they can do it with people from all over the world [9:23] Kimberley Pascal: All good points. :-) [9:23] Four Bailey: and only limited by imaginatio... [9:23] Algernon Spackler: I always dig holes on beaches. I wonder what that says about me. :-) [9:24] Misha Writer: my point again: building in SL is wonderful I'm sure ... [9:24] Art Fossett: i build dams :-) [9:24] Labatt Pawpaw: the beach: 1 person digging or building, & 99 people laying in the sun [9:24] Four Bailey: holes are good - where would we be without them : ) [9:24] Labatt Pawpaw: The 1 percent rul strikes again [9:24] Misha Writer: but most language teachers & students (about whom I know a bit) will want to be doing something wgere they can develop their language [9:24] Kimberley Pascal: I wonder. :-) [9:24] Four Bailey: have you done empirical research on the beach labbatt [9:24] Art Fossett: doesn't the 1% rule apply to any 'social' tool? [9:25] Four Bailey: can you back up your figures? [9:25] Four Bailey: : ) [9:25] Kimberley Pascal: Who are the people digging, and who are the people lying? [9:25] iAlja Writer: but the 99 still learns something by watching :) [9:25] Babbage Linden: i often think sl would be a great language tool [9:25] Daedalus Shepherd: But isn't it justified to say that if we (teachers) can better educate just one student, then we have been successful? Educating them all, really successful? [9:25] Misha Writer: ... and the same will be true for most areas of study [9:25] Babbage Linden: during the uk day you often find many languages spoken here [9:25] iAlja Writer: SL is great for learning a language or just practicing [9:25] Babbage Linden: now that the population is 40+ % european [9:26] Jaime Fabre: audio will be vast improvement in some ways [9:26] Labatt Pawpaw: Skype is probably better for language - you have both chat and voice [9:26] Art Fossett: yes, i used to own land in a spanish quarter and i learned to say 'hola' very well :-) [9:26] Jelly Vella: Not for all. [9:26] Misha Writer: @ Babbage - yes - but that's quite by chance unless the T can set up a situation that requires the L to be practised [9:26] Labatt Pawpaw: and video, even, so you can catch expressions [9:26] Art Fossett: OK [9:26] Misha Writer: ¡Hola, Art! [9:26] Art Fossett: we only have a few minutes left of the scheduled time [9:26] Four Bailey: yes but skype doesn't give you aphysical presence or non verbal comms [9:27] Art Fossett: feel free to stick around and discuss [9:27] Graham Mills: is there a bar? :) [9:27] Misha Writer: but sound will - great for languages! [9:27] Labatt Pawpaw: neiother does 2L, Four - and skype with video gives you rather more [9:27] iAlja Writer: and with Skype you can't just walk up agroup talking in a foreign language [9:27] Four Bailey: in the same way because you're all together as a group in SL and can move relativve to one another [9:27] Art Fossett: i'm afraid that i have to leave on the dot of 5.30...apologies [9:27] Art Fossett: once again, thanks to the panel and to all ther audience [9:27] Babbage Linden: there are also all the favourite environments for language in sl [9:27] Lovely Day: Thanks for doing this Art. It was good when it went free-form [9:27] Babbage Linden: talking about catching trains was a popular one i remember [9:27] Graham Mills: Thanks, Art [9:27] Kimberley Pascal: Thank you all. Art in particular. :-) [9:28] Four Bailey: thanks Art - fascinating discussion [9:28] Algernon Spackler: Yes.. thanks for running this [9:28] Misha Writer: that's what we do in the English Village - teach a bit, learn a bit, and move around chatting - it's great! [9:28] Daedalus Shepherd: Indeed [9:28] Peaches Pessoa: I am sorry to interupt, but as useful as audio would be in SL, one of the biggest struggles I have is seeing. It would be a nightmare I were a student in a class trying to get a good look at a 3d model. [9:28] Magistra Clary: Interesting conversation...not sure I'm much closer to using SL in the classroom. [9:28] Art Fossett: as i say, feel free to stick around... i think it has been a really good discussion [9:28] Art Fossett: sorry about the slow start queuing system! :-) [9:28] Babbage Linden: thanks everyone